Are Mormons Christians? (Part I)

Mormons.

Mitt Romney, one of the Republican party nominees for US president seems to be taking lots of heat from some circles because he’s a Mormon.  The big question being batted around in a confused, muddled manner by anyone who self-identifies as an expert is this: Are Mormons Christians?

What do you think?

Hey, did you know that it doesn’t matter what you think?

Ha ha ha ha ha. (Think about it–truth is not changed by what you think about it!)

Mormons are either Christians or not regardless what you, or others, or 61% of those surveyed, or what Baptist pastors, or what Mormons themselves say.

So are they?

The answer is easy.  But to get to a meaningful answer one needs to define terms precisely.  And of course, my job on earth is to confuse, deceive, and generally screw up words and definitions so that a clear answer gets confounded in a religious mumbo-jumbo of theoillogical thinking and religobabble.

You see, the theoillogicalistic religobabbleationism of culture tends to deem as “Christian” anyone who claims to be a Christian, who is A Good Person, who pays lip service to The Bible, who claims to Follow Jesus, who goes to A Church, and who lives A Moral Life.

Only one problem: Hell is full of such people.

So are they?

Consider with me, my servants, the recent story in my Huffington Post religion section entitled, “Mitt Romney’s Mormonism: Pastors Say Mormons Not Christians, But Defend Candidate Against Attacks,” by Jaweed Kaleem.    Kaleem reports:

After prominent Texas megachurch pastor Rev. Robert Jeffress told audiences on Friday that Mormonism is a “cult” and conservative Christian activist Bryan Fischer took the stage the next day to echo similar views, a new survey released Saturday afternoon says that three out of four pastors agree, at the least, that Mormons are not Christians.

Three out of four, you say?  That’s pretty good odds.  Is that how truth is determined?  What if only one out of four believed Mormons are not Christians?  Would that change the truth of the matter?

Truth by consensus.  That’s my way, my servants.

But you know, if you have been a faithful reader, to expect more from moi.  Let me tell you the truth of the matter so that you need not be confused yourselves, but can nevertheless sow confusion all about your circle of influence.

For starters, one must forget magic underwear, multiple wives, miraculous spectacles, golden plates, Joseph Smith, missing civilizations, and all the other easy distractions of Mormonism.

One question matters to God and me: Who do you say that Jesus is?

There is one right answer to that question, and many, many wrong answers.

Christians have the right answer: Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God, fully God and fully man in one person, and will be so forever.

More simply: Jesus is God.  Jesus is the Second Person of the one God, the Holy Trinity.

Every other belief system or religion has a different answer, which is, by definition, a wrong answer.

If one answers the question any differently than do Christians, that person is not a Christian.

Simple.

The question is, therefore, how would a Mormon answer the question: Who do you say that Jesus is?

Look it up.

And then state the answer in the comments below.

Then the answer will become self-evident.

Ha ha ha ha ha.

(More on this and how I’ve totally screw up the debate later . . . )

19 Responses to “Are Mormons Christians? (Part I)”

  1. http://carm.org/is-mormonism-christian

    “Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness.”

    So Mormonism teaches the necessity of works for salvation. Doesn’t look very Christian to me!

    • Perhaps if you look a little deeper you might see things differently. In the Book of Mormon it says “…we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23) and “…but men eat and drink damnation to their own souls except they humble themselves and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come in and through the atoneing blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.” (Mosiah 3:18)

      Sounds kind of hard core Christian to me…How about you?

    • I gather from your comment that you are a big believer in the necessity of faith (sorry, pun intended…:) )SO am I..But doesn’t true faith also serve as a motivating force for righteous action?

      Jesus truely taught that we should have faith in Him, but didn’t he also say (many times) “Come follow me”? And it seems to me that James also taught that righteous actions must accompany faith; otherwise faith is “dead”. In Matthew 7:21 Jesus explained that we must do the will of the Father to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

      I think the place where some people get hung up a bit is in the meaning of the word “works”. In the Bible “works” often is used to describe the specific, often rigid, often ritualistic actions prescribed by the law of Moses..Many Jews, especially the Pharisees, felt that they only needed to go through the motions, i.e. strictly obey the works of the Mosaic law, they would be saved. This made for a fairly conveniently religion. One could perform the outward actions or activities and be as lecherous, dishonest or mean spirited as he wanted to and still be saved if he limited his sabbath activities, did his animal sacrifices, etc. he was doing what God required.

      That, of course is not quite right. I see two problems with that line of thinking. 1. The Law of Moses was given to point people to Christ. The sacrifices, the actions prescribed in the law are symbolic of the life and atonement of the savior, not just a simple set of rules to follow for salvation. Moreover, even if one who lived before Christ followed the Law precisely, his salvation still required that he believe in the Messiah as the source of his salvation and live a humble pennitent life — in addition to keeping the laws and ordinances that God gave him …

      Secondly, AFTER Jesus came and atoned for our sins the law of Moses was fulfilled (every jot and tittle) so it was no longer to necessary to live all of its little pecularities or “WORKS”.
      These are the “WORKS” that Jesus and the Apostles taught that we no longer have to do. He (Jesus) has given us a new covenant for us to make with him …It begins with faith; which leads to repentance; we are then baptized in his name as a witness that we will accept his sacrifice for us and will covenant with him to keep all of Gdd’s comandments — which include loving and serving our fellow man.
      I suspect you believe this, right? So in this broader sense, Christianity is very much a religion of action or to use a four letter word, “works”.

  2. but – they do believe that jesus christ is the messiah.

  3. It will be interesting to read your answer.

    In the book, Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics (that I strongly recommend), the authors (Spender and Ali) compare Islam with Mormonism, because they are both based on the vision of a single person not witnessed by any other.

    They do not talk about how Mormon think about Jesus. But in Islam Jesus is The Word of Allah, Prophet, Messenger and Spiriti of Allah. But, they denied the divinity of Christ and the crucifixion. Christ is not God, He is just a human, despite son of a virgin (there are other problems, read the book). It seems to me that the Koran copied parts of the Bible randomly without profound analysis.

    I do not know what Mormons think, waiting your answer.

    Best,
    Pedro Erik

    • Pedro —

      Mormons, (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints…yeah i know it’s kind of a long name…:) ) don’t exactly base their religion on a single vision of a single person. IT’s a little more detailed than that.IF you go to http://www.mormon.org you can read about the vision of Joseph Smith ans see role it plays it the church’s founding. TO be brief, we believe that Joseph SMith received multiple revelations, angelic visits, etc in order to restore the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the earth. THe central core of of our doctrine is the testimonies of the apostles and prophets concerning the life and atoneing sacrifice of Jesus Christ. All other teachings of the church are merely appendages.

      Yes, we think the Book of Mormon is a companion to the Bible, and serves as a second witness of Jesus Christ.
      As for what we teach about Christ, I think the words of Jesus (as found in the book of Mormon, 3 Nephi 27 : 13-21) sum it up
      this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.

      14 And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil—

      15 And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works.

      16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world.

      17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father.

      18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words.

      19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

      20 Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me and be baptized in my name, that ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, that ye may stand spotless before me at the last day.

      21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do;

      Thanks for asking. I hope this helps…:)

  4. Here’s a different question: How much of the Bible does a person need to know to find God? How much doctrine and theology is necessary for a person to be forgiven for their sins? Can a person be too intellectually limited to be saved? Either at birth or by brain injury? These are questions we can speculate on, but in the end, it is God that will judge our hearts… and we are not capable of making that judgement. But here’s where I am going:
    Christianity teaches many things that are hard to understand (such as the concept of a trinity wherein three distinct beings are also one being.) We can’t fully understand some things becuase we are finite creations, limited by our experience of the rules of the created world we live in. The question becomes, Which concepts are so crucial that God will not accept us in His presence if we don’t land on the right side of understanding them, and believeing them?
    Followed to the logical conclusion, these questions lead me to ask if, while Mormanism is rife with deviations from traditional, supportable, evidentiary doctrine, does that mean no individual Morman could be a sincere, forgiven, follower of Christ? I am reluctant to come to that conclusion (note that, while I am reluctant, I am also perfectly willing to allow God to be the arbitor of His requirements.) Being mis-taught, or misunderstanding basic truths about God and Jesus, the Holy Spirit and the Trinity may or may not disqualify any one person from participating in the provision God has made for our salvation… and I am not the judge of that, collectively, or individually. Nor is anyone else who is asking whether Mormans are Christians.
    In the end, the question we are discussing today is not really about whether or not Mormanism is a Christian religion. By traditional standards, it clearly is not. In fact, it is obviously a Gnostic belief system, similar to what Paul warned us about in his letters, and for that matter, Morman doctrine is that all of mainstream Christianity is corrupt and misguided, because we do NOT have the “special insight” of their Book of Morman and The Pearl of Great Price. But the question we are really asking is, “Could Mitt Romney possibly be a Christian, even though he is Morman?” And I don’t think we have the information at hand to answer that question. I don’t know what Mr. Romney’s understanding of Morman doctrine is, and I don’t know if he is aware of the significant deviations in Mormanism from Biblical Christiantiy. And frankly, Mitt Romney is the guy who will be held responsible for the answers to those questions. Anybody who asks me why I don’t think Mormanism is Christianity will get a pretty full and complete answer, which begins with the word, “No.” But anybody who asks me if any one Morman is or is not a Christian is going to get a different answer: That’s not up to me to decide.

  5. Hey Boss, just droppin’ off the Cain artwork. I didn’t see anyplace to put it so I’m just sticking in this thread.

    http://www.evilconservatives.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=335&d=1318558021

    Man, that Good Book sure is inspirational, it’s like a Bible for wicked awesome ideas or something.

  6. Mormons are not Christians. No need to debate this to death.

  7. “Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer.” Right off Mormon.org. Sounds Christian. But then you look deeper at their beliefs, and you find that words that you think mean one thing really mean something else. Christians say “Son of God” and mean “of the same substance of God” and “equal to God”. So a Christian understands that Jesus IS God.

    That’s not what Mormons mean when they say “Jesus is the Son of God.” They mean that Jesus is the LITERAL, sexually-begotten son of God. Not only that, the LDS Church teaches that Jesus is the first of MANY spirit sons, icluding Lucifer himself. (Talk about having a black sheep in the family.)

    Also, they believe God was a man on another planet before he became God. And this ISN’T the religion founded by a sci-fi author?

    • I don’t see the problem or the disagreement… I’m puzzled when you think Christians believe that Son of God” means “equal to God” …Do you think He was always equal to God the Father? Seems to me the Gospel of John says he recieved not the fullness at first, but progressed to the point where he became equal with the Father. And as our exemplar in all things, our Shepherd, the one we are supposed to follow, doesn’t the same promise extend to us?

      Isn’t that why he wants us to follow Him?

      As for Lucifer, Isaiah 14:12 says he was “fallen from heaven” and “a son of the morning”…

      Is it really that much of a stretch to think that he started out in the same place we did…?

      As for God the Father having other spirit sons and daughters, doesn’t the bible refer to God as the Father of our spirits?

      • ctcoast, you have some studying to do if you want to understand this. The answer to your questions is in the doctrine of the trinity. Jesus is not “merely” the Son of God. He IS God. He is God, become man, so that he could live our life, and live it sinlessly, and therefore die FOR US, accepting the punishiment WE deserve, and HE did not. So, go study up on the doctrine of the Trinity.
        When you have done that, the rest is easy. If Jesus is equal to God, and Satan is equal to Jesus, or even WAS equal to Jesus at one time, then Satan becomes the equal of God. Therefore, Jesus and Satan CANNOT be equal, they must be different. And, if Jesus is a created being, as we are, then Jesus cannot be God. Therefore, WE and Jesus are different.
        Now, that’s a few lines to make a couple small points responding to you, but the doctrine behind this is rather more complex. What I am saying is that, if you really want to know the answers to these questions, and be comfortable that you understand them, you have a good bit of studying to do. But these are really universal doctrines in essentially every mainstream church and denomination recognized by most Christians as Christian organizations. They can easily be known and understood, if you apply yourself. But they are rather too much to explain exhaustively here.

  8. You do have a good point?and I know nobody cares what say .So if nobody cares I why do get attetion ,and thankyou for bloging I like learning from other peoples opion.It gives me more knowledge ..

  9. iReadFinePrint Says:

    Paul the Apostle says in Galatians: “Let God’s curse fall on anyone, including us or even an angel from heaven, who preaches a different kind of Good News than the one we preached to you.”

    So what does that mean? If someone says that “Jesus is the sexually begotten Son of God” but says it in such a way that only “Jesus is the …” and “… Son of God” is heard by the audience who is listening … He is still condemned.

    • I’m not quite sure I follow everything you’re saying here, but may I make a brief comment about the first chapter of Galatians?

      I just reread that chapter and it is apparent that Paul wrote it because after he taught them someone else taught them a modified version of what Paul taught. Apparently this second version of th Gospel was a little more convenient. At leas t Paul thought it was more “pleasing” –which one might suppose means it was easier to live — perhaps something like”say you believe in Jesus, but you really don’t need to keep all the commandments, etc”

      So it’s understandable that the apostle would fire back that the watered down version of the gospel was “acursed”.

      However many people professing CHristianity use this verse to mean something like “if you teach the doctrines of Christ differently than I do (or what I think the Bible says) you must be wrong and will be cursed”

      a couple of thoughts about that view of Galatians. In the first place, We really don’t have a written record of what Paul taught the Galatians.

      Suppose, for example, I claim to be teaching that same Jesus that Paul taught the Galatians, how do I know I’m right?

      I don’t of course. I can only infer what Paul taught the Galatians– based on the rest of the body of scripture. Implicit in that inferance is the assumption that the doctrines of Christ are consistently taught in the scriptures.

      IT is true that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not accept as doctrine every word or teaching of the Nicean creed. But then why should we? Wasn’t the Nicean creed finalized in the 5th century (a.d. 425 or so)?

      So why must someone necessarily assume that the Jesus that Paul preached to the Galatians is the same that was described in post apostolic, 5th century?

      If you want to believe that the 5th century explanation of the nature of God is the same thing that the Apostles taught that is your right. But to insist that is the only possibility seems like a bit of a stretch.

      Without getting into what might be a useless debate, please realize that there are other possible, viable, scripturally compatible ways of looking at things…

      As to your other comment, are you puzzled about the Mormon’s belief that God is the Father of Jesus Christ’s body?

      If your point of reference is the Nicean Creed doctrine of the Trinity, I can see how that might seem a little odd. (or perhaps not…)

      SImply put, we believe that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father..Just exactly how he was begotten we don’t quite know, so don’t get too carried away with the “sex” aspect… We do believe what the scriptures say about his mother, Mary being a virgin…

      So what does this imply about the physical nature of God the Father? Seems to me the most believeable explanation is that HE has a body and is a distinct individual.. After all if Jesus Christ is literally the Son of God he would be different that we are. His “genetics” would allow him perhaps to do things that we cannot…Like lay down his life and take it up again..Like have power over the elements and the earth (sort of fits since he was their creator)

      Yet being a little like us, wouldn’t He also be in a really good position to know, through his own experience, exactly the pains and struggles we endure here on the earth. WHo better to lead the way and becon us to follow him?

      ANd because of his uniquely divine “genetics” and his first hand knowledge and sinless life could atone for our sins and later sit in perfectly just and merciful judgement over each of us….

      Saying so does in no way belittle God, the Father, nor does it amount to polytheism

      It’s perhaps a little deeper way to look at the nature of God and by reflection the nature of ourselves as his spirit children..

      • ctcoast — thank you for your thoughtful comment. I always appreciate comments that challenge in a thoughtful and balanced in tone. Without addressing each of your points, let me just say that my post was (as it is entitled) merely to address the question “Are Mormons Christians?” Focusing on historical, orthodox Christian Christology as the most important distinctly Christian tenet, the answer is clearly “no”. That’s all.

        I have no problem with people believing whatever they want. But I do have a problem with people who deny the central tenet of historical, orthodox Christianity with respect to the person of Christ calling themselves Christians. Such people may be “religious” or “good” or “believers” or “like Christians” but they are not Christians.

        So believe whatever you want about Jesus, but if you don’t believe he is God, don’t call yourself a Christian. Call yourself something else, and make sure people know you are preaching a different Jesus than the one Paul preached. (And you CAN know the same Jesus Paul preached; to deny this is part of the problem of every non-Christian belief system out there).

  10. 1) The founding of the Mormon religion was clearly to NOT to be identified as being Christian….

    (Regarding Joseph Smith’s alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).

    “What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270.)

    Mormon teachings regarding salvation run contrary to Christian teachings:

    “But all of these blessings are ours on one condition, and this is spoken of by Nephi, when he said: For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, [but mark you this condition,] after all we can do” (Harold B. Lee, Conference Reports, April 1956, p.111. Brackets and italics in original).

    Joseph Smith, by biblical definition is a false prophet, even if only one prophecy is wrong, and sveral of them were. Only a minimal amount of research is required for anyone who truly wants to learn the truth.

    To call Mormonism Christian is discredits its founder’s intention.

    Mormonism is a great religion if you’re a white man, but that’s about it. If you bear the mark of Cain, or you’re just a spirit baby machine waitng to be called out by the next god in line, I can’t understand even considering it.

    It always amazing to me how many religions claim to feel favorable to the God of the Bible and Biblical Jesus on one hand, and discredit his claims and ministry on the other. Can fresh and salt water both flow from the same well? NO.

    I have been quite frank and perhaps somewhat ungraceful, but let’s not dance around the facts to make oursleves feel better in believing falsely. If you want to be a Mormon, great, be a Mormon, but by design it is not Christianity.

    d(-_-)b

  11. Thanks for sharing information about Mormon Magic Underwear and Observations of Mormon.Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself Mormon Magic Underwear is a popular garment-type for devout Mormons who are devoted to their faith. is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God,

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